Curse

Valeria · Aug 10, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Damn some nasty changes right after i completed my second ritualist.
(needet a new one because i have 2 accounts and don't want to buy GWEN 2 times)

Ancestors' Rage was a little overpowered but i would have preferred something like a higher energy cost.

Splinter weapon: well at least it stops the ritu from equipping the WHOLE party with it. I always hated the wardens at arborstone doing so.

spirit rift.... wtf why did they change it to 1 second and now back again!

for the spirits: i don't mind a few of the 25 energy spirits now being 10+exhaustion. But wanderlust too.. can't afford casting more than 1 exhaustion spirit (anyway i now have my energy only reduced by the exhaustion while setting up spirits no dark blue energy bar waiting to recharge anymore. Feels like a waste

)

thor hammerbane · Aug 10, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

FFS. I actually just made a ritualist yesterday. This is great timing for me.

Cebe · Aug 10, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Exhaustion is not the way to go. A good ritualist can handle 25 energy spirits better than exhaustion on spirits.

This bit is quoted for ultimate truth, but the stuff about "charges" flew straight over my head - I didn't stand a chance unserstanding that

Quote:

Originally Posted by thor hammerbane

FFS. I actually just made a ritualist yesterday. This is great timing for me.

arggh, people talk about thr Ritualist like it's died. It's not, just some builds don't work well any more. With a normal channeling build, take out Ancestor's Rage and use another skill like Lamentation or Gaze from Beyond (example only)... With a spirit spamming build, use only one offensive exhausting spirit...

The rit is only dead if people allow it to die. Adapting ftw.

Pakikid · Aug 10, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

This update buffed nearly everyone else, but the Rit skills got nerfed. Even with the increased 25 energy cost for a spirit was reasonable because there were skills to help recover from the high cost, but Ritualists don't have the energy capabilities of an Elementalist to withstand much exhaustion. I can't believe they put exhaustion onto such low cost skills like Wielder's Strike, Wanderlust, and Xinrae's Weapon.

VegJed · Aug 10, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Well, I hadn't played GW in a few months, I got tired of having to deal with skill buffs/nerfs every month or two, not to mention the idea of pve only skills was kinda pissing me off, as it meant that Anet had lost all ability to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time. So I come back today, try to get some playtime in, see Dissonance has a recharge time of 20. o.O? Thought, "Well maybe they thought Dissonance was underpowered, whatever." Cast it, then notice the gray on my energy bar. WTF??? Exhaustion?!!!! I learned how to deal with high energy spirits, but my e-management doesn't get rid of that gray bar. WTF!!!!!

Meh, guess it just means that my offensive promiser gets that Vampirism spirit instead of Dissonance, which I was considering but decided against because I liked having interruption at my fingertips. But really, once Hellgate London comes out, I'm probably never playing GW again (not that Anet cares, they've already got my money, but I'm considering not buying GW:EN since Anet can't seem to balance anything).

DeBron · Aug 11, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

let's face it, some of the rit's spiking skills were just ridiculous. i kinda like the exhaustion change. they're now similar to gale: use these at the right moment, and you can blow your opponents to pieces. use these indescriminately, you won't have any energy. if a mesmer or a warrior can run spammable exhaustion skills, i don't see how a rit can't.

You obviously have never or rarely play rit.

Calen The Civl · Aug 11, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

This bit is quoted for ultimate truth, but the stuff about "charges" flew straight over my head - I didn't stand a chance unserstanding that

arggh, people talk about thr Ritualist like it's died. It's not, just some builds don't work well any more. With a normal channeling build, take out Ancestor's Rage and use another skill like Lamentation or Gaze from Beyond (example only)... With a spirit spamming build, use only one offensive exhausting spirit...

The rit is only dead if people allow it to die. Adapting ftw.

The charge idea was just another alternative to balancing ritspikes and other pvp grievous against the ritualist and their spirits. If anything the counters could be overpowered against the ritualist under a charge system. The current health based system is fine with me; it just needs a harder look into its rather ineffective mechanics. Shelter and Displacement are among a few that come to mind. They should be similar if not identical to the protection of the equivalent monk skills.

I agree: the ritualist is not dead; players just need to adapt. I still disagree with exhaustion used on the ritualist without some way to deal with it.

Overall, the changes do not effect the builds I run frequently. Although my splinter support build for tombs has been broken, I am not too upset. Keeping splinter and other weapon spells on rangers while they have all the fun was rather dull unless I was in the right mood for it.

Quicksilver Switch-Blade · Aug 11, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Oh, they are by far not dead in PvE, thats for sure (sig of ghostly might just became more enticing due to the decrease in recharge of some good spirits, but..... ehxaustion still hurts), just the way rits work, the only way they will be good in PvP, is if a majority of the group is a rit just due to how conditional so many of their spells are, and how alone they are too vulnerable because of how easy spirits die.
The problem with HA wasnt the skills per se, more so the design of rits imho.
I dont PvP much but thats just what Ive observed after using rits for a little, so obviously, take with a big grain of salt >.>

Toutatis · Aug 11, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

The ritualist was already an underused profession, although hitting it with so many nerf bats at once was a bad move on ANet's part, no matter how overpowered the ritspike is.

No matter how powerful a build is, it always has a weakness somewhere. What I feel ANet should have done was buff up some of the other professions' skills to make it a little more obvious on how to deal with ritspikes (after which ritspiking would become less viable as more teams would come equipped to counter it, and so the metagame progresses to the next flavour of the month).

Anyway, onto how this has affected my rit... The addition of exhaustion hasn't really affected me all that much, as none of the skills I was using before were in the exhaustion bracket. The longer casting time on spirit rift has made it close to useless in my build though, so I've looked at some other alternatives for extra damage. Right now I'm trying out Painful Bond again to see how well it works in conjunction with Bloodsong and Vampirism (which isn't looking like such a bad skill now that I've really started to test its capabilities out). Spirit Burn is still on my bar even though its damage has been nerfed, as it can still do a reasonable amount of damage when required. Just need to figure out which extra energy management skill to use and what should go into the elite slot and I'll be ready to head back into the high level areas of PvE again

Ben-A-BoO · Aug 11, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quicksilver Switch-Blade

the only way they will be good in PvP, is if a majority of the group is a rit just due to how conditional so many of their spells are, and how alone they are too vulnerable because of how easy spirits die.

This is not 100% true but you got a good point there.

Ritualist's with skills like Brutal Weapon, Warmonger's Weapon, Splinter weapon and Vital Weapon were/ are a good support for the frontline even without any other fellows around. But they haven't seen much play beside the Dual-Glass-Arrow spike.

But this is not only a pvp problem, even if the balance changes are directed to that. (Damage) Support classes are rarely recognized by the pve community (see the paragon). Even with splinter weapon, Ranger's did tend to rather bring it themselves then invite a Ritualist, with a much higher damage potential ... doh.

The biggest problem I see with this update is applying the exhaustion mechanic to a class with such a small energy poll.

Here is an example how great wielder's strike is now:

1. Wielders Strike:
2. Wielders Strike:

(This is a 35 energy pvp bar with survivor runes - +5 e one hand - shield offhand)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quicksilver moriz

if a mesmer or a warrior can run spammable exhaustion skills, i don't see how a rit can't.

Because of the nature of those spells and how they are used (and that applies mainly to pvp, moriz). Shock and gale are interrupts to key skills and use the knock down mechanic. In play style that is totally different from a damage dealing spell like wielder's strike or ancestor's. And they are as well from secondary professions... no Warrior or Mesmer skill is out there that causes exhaustion. (Still puzzeled which Mesmer build you had in mind).

And concerning spirits... are they really so powerful in pve that you would spent exhaustion on them? Even with a great skill like 'Summon Spirits' they are still stationary and very vulnerable, especially in Hard Mode.

I think Anet did a great Job with this update but failed big time in balancing the Ritualist.
The Problem lies in the conception of the class itself as Quicksilver and others stated. The primary Spawning Power is too useless to actively balance their attribute point management.

Thanks for your time,
Timebandit

Sazgo · Aug 11, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I was testing last night and the old channeling builds i have all seemed useless now. You simply cant use ashes at all because with the exhaustion building up lowering your energy pool even further by holding an item is silly we have perhaps the smallest energy pool in game amoungst casters already and now this.

What i find most annoying is the real lack of good rit elites its always been like this but since the introduction of summon spirits which meant you no longer had to always use ritual lord with spirit builds there was now room for other elites, unfortunatly the only useable ones seemed to be offering of spirit for energy or wanderlust to add another spirit but now with wanderlust and anguish both giving exhaustion i can no longer use it.

I really dont get why rits have no elites that actually heal or some real protection, or a good high damage elite or a spirit that deals good damage. Preservation aint good at all, spiritlight weapon kinda contradicts itself - they have to be in range of a spirit but you are usually at the backlines and the people taking the damage are generally infront so out of range of spirits. Weapon of remedy is a lifedrain although its very nice elite but its nothing special at all in comparision to most of the monk elites.

The channeling elites are all either crap or just not focused into damage. Caretakers charge i like but in pve if i wanna do damage this isnt anything special its very nice when doing pvp/pve without a healer though.

ValidusMonachus · Aug 11, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Have any of you tried not spamming Exhaustion skills? Just throwing it out there because most of you complain about exhaustion as though it kills Ritualists. Rit Spike as an 8 man build was over powered. Too much utility and too much power. Ritualists are a hybrid class meaning that they should not be as good a healer as a Monk or as powerful as an Elementalist. They should be able to do both, not as well, but good enough. Before the update, the spiking skills were too powerful and spammable. They had to do something about it. Exhaustion is pretty extreme on short recharge spells, but then you shouldn't be using that often. But there are other Channeling spells out there you know.

Most of the people that play the Ritualist class will sit there and complain and whine about it. The good ones will adapt and make new builds. I think people are upset that they no longer dominate some areas of PvP.

Goldleader · Aug 11, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

I really don't think the Rit class is worthless at all, but several of the "fun" skills now need to be shelved.

Dissonance still has too short of a lifespan for my taste. Disenchantment is more interesting with the decrease in energy (regardless of the exhaustion issue).

Ancestors' Rage is a tough pill to swallow. Even when I run my resto rit, I like to equip this skill so when I target my tank I can quickly give him/her a weapon spell, heal and a nice nuke. What made this skill so ideal is that you can cast it on others in your group.

I never liked Wanderlust before, and now I have no interest in ever using it again. As it was stated before, why are the rit elites so terrible?

If you love spirit bombing, you can still use Anguish or one of the other spirits. Due to the exhaustion problem, you just need to limit yourself to 1 exhaustion spirit.

GWEN has 2 spirits that interest me. If they both get exhaustion, I think it is safe to say that I probably won't be using any of the GWEN skills if they remain as they are now.

Calen The Civl · Aug 11, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValidusMonachus

Have any of you tried not spamming Exhaustion skills? Just throwing it out there because most of you complain about exhaustion as though it kills Ritualists. Rit Spike as an 8 man build was over powered. Too much utility and too much power. Ritualists are a hybrid class meaning that they should not be as good a healer as a Monk or as powerful as an Elementalist. They should be able to do both, not as well, but good enough. Before the update, the spiking skills were too powerful and spammable. They had to do something about it. Exhaustion is pretty extreme on short recharge spells, but then you shouldn't be using that often. But there are other Channeling spells out there you know.

Most of the people that play the Ritualist class will sit there and complain and whine about it. The good ones will adapt and make new builds. I think people are upset that they no longer dominate some areas of PvP.

The problem with the exhaustion skills, especially with the spirits. Is they almost need to be spammed in order to be effective. Spirits are simply too fragile not to be able to reset them. This is especially true in pve.

The problem with exhaustion is the fact ritualists cannot deal with it. They are able to deal with 25 energy skills much easier. Another solution to the ritspike would have been to reduce the damage of the skills drastically but increase spamming ability. Essentially, morph the channeling line to be a pressure line with a handful of larger damage skills that are not spammable.

Ritspike was overpowered; however, another overpowered build is likely on the horizon. Skill balances are necessary, but the currently pvp mechanics allow continual overpowered team builds to occur. One way to achieve balance would be to limit builds in the arenas to standardized "flavor of the month." The new builds would rotate every month or so based on pvper's votes.

Longasc · Aug 11, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

My Rit was/is a pure channeling Ritualist. Splinter Weapon is still awesome.

But still, my build suffers. I do not really want to play Restoration Rit, even if they are boosted a lot, Rits can still add more to a party with Splinter Weapon IMO, and Monks are still preferred.

My usual singleplayer (Hero+Henchies) build: 16 Channeling, everything else subject to whatever is needed: 2 Hero Rangers, 1 Hero MM.

1. Spirit Rift (a bit nerfed, still viable)
2. Ancestor's Rage (RIP - killed by exhaustion)
3. Vampire Weapon (still very good)
4. Splinter Weapon (still GODLY, can be extended over 20 seconds with Spawning Power, do not forget that)
5. LB Gaze or Wielder's Strike (RIP - exhaustion kills it)
6. Offering of Spirit [Elite] (still kicks arse)
7. Bloodsong
8. Flesh of my Flesh or Sunspear Rebirth Signet

Okay, suggestions... how to fill the two slots of the two nerfed skills? I miss my 2nd AoE nuke and the way of indirect casting that Ancestor's Rage had. Was cool versus Dervishes with Vow of Silence.

And well, why had Ancestor's Rage to get wrecked... erm balanced? Ritspike in HA.

I think Isaiah Cartwright already knows enough about Exhaustion to see that it kills most skills, even for Elementalists with much higher energy pools.

Also forget the though that Ritspike got balanced, nobody is playing Ritspike anymore. This was not a balance, this was a destruction. Right now I am observing some HA matches, always good to determine which class gets the nerfbat next.

First they buffed Channeling like there is no tomorrow, and now that.

Winterclaw · Aug 11, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

This change isn't going to affect my pve rit very much because I usually go restoration with pain+bloodsong.

Now I hope anet gives SS exhaustion as well.

VegJed · Aug 11, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValidusMonachus

Most of the people that play the Ritualist class will sit there and complain and whine about it. The good ones will adapt and make new builds. I think people are upset that they no longer dominate some areas of PvP.

Actually, most of the people in this thread seem to be more PvE players than PvP. Me, I've never dominated any form of PvP. I held my own in AB and FA, had a few good runs in RA, but during my limited jaunts into HA, I never really did that well. I think I have 2 fame. Meanwhile, I have adapted those builds which were affected, but I'm still gonna complain, so I guess I'm just alright.

I have no idea why they nerfed Wanderlust, unless it was part of that ritspike thing which people seem to assume all ritualists use. I mean, I pretty much never saw Wanderlust in action. It took away an elite, thus preventing Ritual Lord, and it would be dead long before it could be recast. I had one experimental build centered around it, but never really gave it much of a try. Was it really seeing a ton of action in PvP?

Iñaki · Aug 11, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I already know the next skill balances:

Offering of Spirit: Decrease Recharge time to 10 sec. This skill now causes Exhaustion.

Signet of Spirits: Decrease recharge time to 15 sec. This skill now causes Exhaustion.

Attuned Was Songkai: This skill now causes Exhaustion.

What? This are balances; the ritualist was never meant to be an efficient energy manager. But stop crying, you still have Spirit Channeling and Essence Strike!

Abedeus · Aug 12, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Dude. Stop. Now. I would stop playing rit for A LONG time if they nerfed Attuned Was. What can we, PvE players, play now? Spirit Spammers? Yeah, exhaustion on nice spirits, that costed 25 before updated... And they weren't THAT powerful, eh? Channeling? Please... Ancestor's was in 90% of Channeling builds. Spirit Rift is now easy to interrupt, but it isn't a problem - When Factions came out, it was 2 seconds too. Restoration... Yeah, that's not nerfed, yet. I hope they aren't going to make Spirit Light heal for 10-100, Soothing Memories recharge 10 and Mend Body and Soul condition-removal-only spell. If they will, surely players will just abandon this class, just as Mesmers got abandoned.

Calen The Civl · Aug 12, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

There is no need to panic about the class being nerfed to the point of being completely abandoned. That is poor business and won't happen.

Anet should try to dedicate resources and look why the pvp system allows such exploitation of overpowered builds. Skill balance will always be necessary, but balance does not mean the complete removal of a team build. Balance would be matching the effectiveness of that build with an equivalent team build.

The flaw is not necessarily in the class design as it is the pvp environment. For many of the classes, especially the ritualist, the exploitive nature of pvp team formations have derailed the original purposes of the classes as the manuals outlined because of the succession of balances.

Although it is not likely, I would like to see the spirits returned to the more manageable 25 energy and remove exhaustion from all the skills. The channeling skills need to be dropped into a pressure range of damage. In addition some other skills need to be redesigned to provide a counter to the spirit spamming but still be generic enough to be helpful against other classes.

I still believe a charge system would be better than the current system. Perhaps even a maintance system where the ritualist suffers energy degeneration for each spirit summoned for as long as that spirit is active -similar to enchantments. Of course either system would require a complete overhaul of the class and all skills that were made to counter the class. I do not believe Anet has the resources allocated for such a thing considering they are developing GW2.